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Good morning. Here's something very interesting. Check out Ehlers & Wiegmann's 1950s-1960s book on page 1125:

"The watches with the Luminor dial are some of the rarest examples of Reference GPF 2/56 known to date. Of the 25 watches registered in our database so far (as at 01/01/2016), only four examples (16 %) feature this type of dial."

"With reference to the period of manufacture for the version with the "Luminor Panerai" dial, the two Reference GPF 2/56 watches documented in this chapter provide us with an important clue: Both examples are fitted with Angelus movements that carry the date marking "MAI.61"."


Cheers and have a great day

Jose



I guess we should just agree to disagree on the 1950s vs 1960s.

Cheers my friend
 
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Hmm.. It seems like Panerai has created a timeline for themselves a decade ahead of the “new” timeline created by @pereztroika - whom to me absolutely seems to be the correct one.

I wonder why this is so? Could it be to supress and “camouflage” the influence by the extensive deliveries to the Nazis?

Anyway, thanks for a great read Perestroika and thanks for finding your way to our small enthusiast forum, here in the “outer part of the world”.

Cheers!
 
Good morning. Here's something very interesting. Check out Ehlers & Wiegmann's 1950s-1960s book on page 1125:

"The watches with the Luminor dial are some of the rarest examples of Reference GPF 2/56 known to date. Of the 25 watches registered in our database so far (as at 01/01/2016), only four examples (16 %) feature this type of dial."

"With reference to the period of manufacture for the version with the "Luminor Panerai" dial, the two Reference GPF 2/56 watches documented in this chapter provide us with an important clue: Both examples are fitted with Angelus movements that carry the date marking "MAI.61"."

Interesting indeed, and particularly in light of these statements... ;)
Btw, Ehlers & Wiegmann's books are full of made up watches and fakes.
Ehlers & Wiegmann are part of the problem...
One more thing, pls forget what you have read in books for a moment

First of all, that two of the four GPF 2/56 watches in E&W's database with Lumior dial have movements dated "MAI.61" is not evidence that Luminor dials didn't exist prior to 1961. Such a conclusion would just be an example of an unwarranted, inductive generalization that uses evidence about a limited number of things of a certain type to make a claim about all or most things of that type.

On the contrary, according Pasetto & Cipullo (Panerai - una storia italiano, 2013), all GPF 2/56 watches, with the exception of the movements, were completed by 1958. In other words, both the Radiomir and the Luminor dials for these watches were made in the late 1950s.

So, let's go back to the core issue here; the evidence for the existence of Luminor dials in the 1950s. You claim that:
"Luminor" was introduced around 1962/63, based on the results of my extensive research.

However, that claim has not been corroborated by others. On the contrary, several sources confirm that Luminor existed in the 1950s, e.g.:
  • Ehlers & Wiegmann (1950s-1960s book, p. 1313), document the existence of a Ref. 6152/1 (case no. 124982) with crown guard and a Luminor dial with a "12.55" (December 1955) movement.
  • The aforementioned Birindelli watch with a Luminor dial from circa 1955 (Sotheby's, 2014).
  • Jake Ehrlich (Jake's Panerai World) makes the following comment on Birindelli's Luminor: "This watch basically marked the end of the line for Panerai's research & development of the watches in the mid 1950s. ... if you wore it today, it would look so contemporary and modern, yet is was made in 1955."
  • Negretti (Panerai Historia, 2014) documents that "In the mid-1950s Panerai made two small exclusive series of watches for the Egyptian Navy... The first series was equipped with a Radiomir sandwich dial, despite the fact that the Luminor compound was now being used... but can be explained by the request made by the military for a stronger luminescence." (p. 90).
  • The second series to the Egyptian Navy, the GPF 2/56, which, with the exception of the movements, were completed by 1958 (Pasetto & Cipullo, Panerai - una storia italiano, 2013, p. 301). Two versions were made. "One had a glossy case, usually with the inscription 'Radiomir Panerai,' and the other had a matte finish with 'Luminor Panerai.'" (Negretti, p. 95).
  • Also, according to Negretti (Panerai Historia, 1999), "It was in this [postwar] period that the radium-based substance was gradually replaced by the non-radioactive Luminor paint, although it is possible that some Luminor dials were made experimentally while the war was still going on." (p. 42).
In other words, the overwhelming evidence clearly suggests the existence of Luminor dials in the 1950s.

Cheers
 
Redigert:
Interesting indeed, and particularly in light of these statements... ;)

You're the one who only believes what is written in books ;)


However, that claim has not been corroborated by others. On the contrary, several sources confirm that Luminor existed in the 1950s, e.g.:

Millions of people also confirm there is a guy in the sky who controls our lives. It must be true since it is written in a book ;)


Ehlers & Wiegmann (1950s-1960s book, p. 1313), document the existence of a Ref. 6152/1 (case no. 124982) with crown guard and a Luminor dial with a "12.55" (December 1955) movement.

Again, the only modified 6152/1 that has a 12.55 (case number 124982, SMZ MM 186) was part to the last batch delivered to the Marina Militare in 1968. It's obvious that the 12.55 was either a left-over from the GPF 2/56 production or that is was replaced at some point.

This is the watch:

https://perezcope.com/2016/05/18/vintage-panerai-6152-1-with-angelus-240-on-chrono24/



The aforementioned Birindelli watch with a Luminor dial from circa 1955 (Sotheby's, 2014).

Just another faulty auction listing based on old information.



Jake Ehrlich (Jake's Panerai World) makes the following comment on Birindelli's Luminor: "This watch basically marked the end of the line for Panerai's research & development of the watches in the mid 1950s. ... if you wore it today, it would look so contemporary and modern, yet is was made in 1955."

Jake is a good friend of mine and we work together on various projects. What he wrote about the Birindelli watch was based on the Sotheby's listing, so no evidence.


Negretti (Panerai Historia, 2014) documents that "In the mid-1950s Panerai made two small exclusive series of watches for the Egyptian Navy... The first series was equipped with a Radiomir sandwich dial, despite the fact that the Luminor compound was now being used... but can be explained by the request made by the military for a stronger luminescence." (p. 90).

"...but can be explained" doesn't sound very confident, does it? As already mentioned, Negretti's statements have little weight since they are based on the fairy tales told by the well-known Italian Panerai dealer.


The second series to the Egyptian Navy, the GPF 2/56, which, with the exception of the movements, were completed by 1958 (Pasetto & Cipullo, Panerai - una storia italiano, 2013, p. 301).

This is your own interpretation of what you read... The authors don't mention a second series at all. Here's what they realy wrote:

"On that presumtion, the watches would have been completed by 1958 and deliveries carried out over the course of several years. This was, because with the exception of the Angelus 240 SF movement all components were made in Florence and this extended the production times given that Guido Panerai e Figlio, unlike Rolex SA, did not have a large number of workers to dedicate exclusively to the making of watches."

The authors talk about the watches that were delivered to Egypt. I don't think the "Luminor" GPF 2/56 were meant for Egypt. Giuseppe Panerai probably tried to sell them to the Italian Marina Militare.

However, Passetto & Cipullo agree with me on the introduction period of "Luminor". The thing about research is there will always be new findings. Just look at physics for instance, new knowledge is revealed every day. Would you insist, the findings in a book that was written 50 years ago to be still correct today?

Books are stupid. Once printed they cannot be updated. This is the reason why I publish my findings online and for free. I can always write new articles or update the old ones with new information.


Two versions were made. "One had a glossy case, usually with the inscription 'Radiomir Panerai,' and the other had a matte finish with 'Luminor Panerai.'" (Negretti, p. 95).

Yes, two versions were made. Negretti doesn't say a word about the prodction dates.


Also, according to Negretti (Panerai Historia, 1999), "It was in this [postwar] period that the radium-based substance was gradually replaced by the non-radioactive Luminor paint, although it is possible that some Luminor dials were made experimentally while the war was still going on." (p. 42).

Again, Negretti's statements are based on fairy tales, not on properly conducted research. And why would Panerai have made "Luminor" dials during WW2? Nobody cared about radiation in watches back then.

In other words, the overwhelming evidence clearly suggests the existence of Luminor dials in the 1950s.

I cannot see any evidence, sorry, just people guessing or copy pasting what others said.

Btw, I just talked to Loris Pasetto on the phone and he told me the ammunition box with the replaced Radiomir dials were sunk off the coast of La Spezia in 1971 (according to Marina Militare Commander Zavattaro, who later became a manager at Officine Panerai SpA).

So while "Luminor" was introduced in 1962/63, the replacement of old Radiomir dials took place much later.

It makes no sense that Panerai introduced a tritium-based lume in the 1950s since there was no need for it. The need for a harmless lume was only recognised after several US lawsuits had been filed against Rolex. These events mark the beginning of tritium-based lume in watches and Giuseppe Panerai saw this as an opportunity to create his own version.


Cheers

Jose
 
Redigert:
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I cannot see any evidence

Ok, my friend. I think it's time to call it a day (or night in your case). ;)

The good thing with proper research, in whatever form, is that it contains transparent data, relevant references to back up any claims, and that it's peer reviewed before it's published - else it isn't research. This also goes for whatever is published online.
Books are stupid. Once printed they cannot be updated.
Btw. books do actually come in new editions too... ;)

I can't see that you have provided evidence yet for anything related to the first production dates of Luminor dials, although I asked for that already in my first comment to you... However, you eagerly state how everyone else is wrong, with no references to back up these statements.

You claim that:
the only modified 6152/1 that has a 12.55 (case number 124982, SMZ MM 186) was part to the last batch delivered to the Marina Militare in 1968.
However, that's irrelevant to the discussion regarding when Luminor dials were first made. Even if that watch was actually delivered in 1968, it doesn't change the fact that the case was made in 1955 and that the movement was also made in 1955. The delivery date says nothing about the production date.

You also claim that:
This is your own interpretation of what you read... The authors don't mention a second series at all.
Well, I can only repeat what I quoted verbatim by the author: "In the mid-1950s Panerai made two small exclusive series of watches for the Egyptian Navy." (Negretti, Panerai Historia, 2014, p.90).

I have come to understand that you don't really want to discuss actual evidence regarding the Luminor dial. You still just claim that it was introduced in 1962/63 without any references to back your claim up. I'm fine with that. I guess at this point, it would be better we continue over a beer than boring everyone here at this forum ;)

So, again, I suggest that we agree to disagree as we don't seem to get any further.

All the best,

Cheers
 
Redigert:
Har Panerai submersibles gjort et hopp på bruktmarkedet? Mener jeg så flere ned i 28' i fjor sommer'ish, mens nå ser jeg både her og på finn at de ligger fra 40' og oppover.

Gjorde det desto verre å sitte og se på at en 00024-B løp ut tiden til £2k på eBay, rett etter at kontoen er tømt på sommerferiebestillinger...
 
Er det andre enn Bjerke som som er AD for Panerai i Norge?
På grunn av det tullet med ventelister på R--X frister det lite å legge igjen penger hos Bjerke.
 
Er det andre enn Bjerke som som er AD for Panerai i Norge?
På grunn av det tullet med ventelister på R--X frister det lite å legge igjen penger hos Bjerke.
Kun Bjerke som har Panerai. Jeg skjønner Bjerke godt. Som de selv skriver; "Ønsket er å prioritere lojale kunder som har større interesse av klokken enn å spekulere i et raskt salg kort tid senere."
 
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Kun Bjerke som har Panerai. Jeg skjønner Bjerke godt. Som de selv skriver; "Ønsket er å prioritere lojale kunden som har større interesse av klokken enn å spekulere i et raskt salg kort tid senere."

Det er dette som er så herlig med det frie marked med fri flyt av varer og tjenester.
Bjerke kan velge hvordan de vil drive butikk og jeg kan ( i stor grad) velge hvem jeg vil gi sparepengene mine.

Nå må jeg finne ut av hvem jeg skal bruke som servicepunkt for Panerai framfor Bjerke.
 
Jeg sendte en 312 dit en gang. Om den er kjøpt i Norge spiller ingen rolle. Den blir deklarert ut som "service eller reparasjon" og da kommer den inn igjen også uten spørsmål.
 
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Panerai har sitt Europeiske service punkt lokalisert i Amsterdam, som kun mottar ur som er sendt inn via AD'r eller deres egne Boutiques. Spesielt kompliserte ur eller ur med +2000WR sendes til fabrikken i Neuchatel.

Urmaker Bjerke har visst en av sine urmakere i gang med å bli sertifisert til å kunne utføre service på noen av "in house" verkene. Dette gir forhåpentlig kortere service tider, enn det som visstnok har vært tilfelle i Amsterdam.:)

De tidligere modeller med ETA verk, kan jo nærmest hvilken som helst urmaker utføre en standard service på.
 
Panerai har sitt Europeiske service punkt lokalisert i Amsterdam, som kun mottar ur som er sendt inn via AD'r eller deres egne Boutiques. Spesielt kompliserte ur eller ur med +2000WR sendes til fabrikken i Neuchatel.

Urmaker Bjerke har visst en av sine urmakere i gang med å bli sertifisert til å kunne utføre service på noen av "in house" verkene. Dette gir forhåpentlig kortere service tider, enn det som visstnok har vært tilfelle i Amsterdam.:)

De tidligere modeller med ETA verk, kan jo nærmest hvilken som helst urmaker utføre en standard service på.

Heisann
I denne forbindelse så var jeg en tur innom Bjerke i går. Ønsket en trykktest på min Pam000. Ble forespeilet 4 ukers servicetid på dette, og 14 uker hvis jeg ville ha full service på den. Det er helt i orden å vente disse ukene hvis det er det eneste alternativet, men er det noen urmakere i Oslo som kan gjennomføre trykktest og pakningsbytte på denne? Gjerne noen du eller andre her inne har gode erfaringer med.
 
Heisann
I denne forbindelse så var jeg en tur innom Bjerke i går. Ønsket en trykktest på min Pam000. Ble forespeilet 4 ukers servicetid på dette, og 14 uker hvis jeg ville ha full service på den. Det er helt i orden å vente disse ukene hvis det er det eneste alternativet, men er det noen urmakere i Oslo som kan gjennomføre trykktest og pakningsbytte på denne? Gjerne noen du eller andre her inne har gode erfaringer med.

Ville hørt med @Greg
 
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Mulig noen har tipset om denne artikkelen tidligere, men WatchTime har en særdeles kul omtale av 422. Mye flotte bilder og artig med en litt annerledes test!
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