Fortsetter litt med 5711 vs Bleu
Re: POLL: FPJ Bleu vs Patek 5711
Originally Posted by
lmcgbaj 
It seems that when folks vote with their wallet, the numbers show interesting results.
Be it marketing, be it design preference, be it ignorance, be it aesthetics, be it brand preference or whatever you want to call it, the vast majority of folks outside the WIS circles would still choose the Nautilus. I think most would agree.
My curiosity was in regards to folks on the HEF and it seems that even here, while most folks know very well what they are getting themselves into, they still chose the Nautilus over the Bleu by a small margin.
The reason for comparing the two watches is because both are non-complicated watches in similar price range from high end manufacturers that can work as daily wearers very well. Period.
Comparing the Bleu with a dressy Calatrava would not be fair because the Bleu is not a pure dress watch. It is much more versatile and can work in most situations and therefore can very well be the only watch you own. Same with the 5711.
I know that the Bleu was compared with two more dressy watches in a recent Hodinkee article but I personally found that odd as the Bleu stood out as a casual watch vs the other two (Patrimony and Saxonia). As mentioned in the article the Bleu is a piece "... that you can wear it in a variety of settings" and I agree with that. A Patrimony, or a Saxonia, or a Calatrava are much more dressy and I would not consider them as versatile. Therefore, at least to me, the comparison with a 5711 makes more sense.
As a non-complicated versatile watch, I did not see the need for a precious metal. However, having one in the Bleu case and movement is definitely an advantage but even at today's high gold prices, you are only getting a maximum of 3k worth of precious metal at best.
Also keep in mind that the reasoning used as a WIS does not make that much sense in real life. To put it simplistically paying 20k for a manual wind watch does not really strike as getting value to most folks. Therefore, comparing value in high-end watches tends to be quite irrelevant. Buying a high end watch is an emotional purchase. Some value brand name and history, some value design, some value the technical data, etc. but trying to put a value on the different aspects is foolish.
Let's play devil's advocate.
I would say that outside the brand name, history and value retention which are quite obviously an advantage for the Patek, I can see two other advantages:
- Practicality and Servicing
Although this is probably not as important for Patek as it is for Journe, A PP caliber 324 can be serviced by a master watchmaker down the line without the need to send the watch to Patek. However, for the Journe, even if we ignore the uncertainty of the brand future (which is the pink elephant staring at you inside a small room), the specialty case back screws and the concealed gear train will make this movement harder to service down the road for an independent watchmaker. Making a 3 hander movement more complicated to service without any tangible benefits does not seem very thoughtful to me. However, the movement is beautiful, no doubt.
- Design
The Bleu has a stunning dial and it is obviously the main attraction of the watch. Although, as many have said, it does not have the Journe DNA, I feel it is a rather "independent soul" within the brand. It is definitely a very beautiful and unique watch. The Nautilus 5711 (or Jumbo) was designed by Gerald Genta almost 40 years ago and it remain true to the original design with a few updates over the years but otherwise visually unchanged. You could say that the design stood the test of time for almost 40 years and it is still one of the most popular watches Patek makes to date? The Nautilus was Stainless Steel as originally design and remains true to its origins. I can see 5711 has a clear advantage here that is probably unfair since Bleu did not have a chance to prove itself as a design that stood the test of time.
So in short, if brand name, history, value retention, serviceability, practically and design are not something important to you, then you should get the Bleu.
I still like the Bleu BTW. I just love to mess with Os.
Red:
Who said "most" know what they are getting themselves into?? The way I see it, if you are looking for a "real and true" watch you get a Journe and worry not about anything else. People will always consider Patek because they are too scared. Value retention is a factor always considered and truth is, a Patek will hold its value better...for the time being at least. They make 55,000 pieces per year and speak to the larger base which consists of collectors who know little about watches (by no means do i intend anyone here), consider them investments and wish to sell them later, or in the larger sense are looking for the status symbol that screams "i have class, and money, and i'm above an AP and a Rolex!"
First, 55,000 pieces yet still being called exclusive is exclusive BS on its own! The fact that they can sell them all and make another batch no worries by the next year makes me wonder how many people buy them simply because someone...possibly at Tourneau, told them it was the ultimate watch with nothing above it. I know i was told that once upon a time and fell for it...but I actually did some reading and realized the most exclusive watches are not made via assembly line and 55,000 pieces per year is a lot more than 20,000; 900; 150 and even 15! My point is proven just through instagram alone. All these rappers, big shots, flippin Kardashian boy with their rose gold Pateks and all they know about them is "it's a Patek!" My a** is a Patek! Never in my life have I been so appalled by the idea that a brand can be so incredible just by its name! You think they can get into details but truth is...its just a Patek and nothing more. No finishing to be proud of (compared to other better ones), no technical amazement (compared to Journe), no handwork that makes you feel the soul of the watchmaker who worked on it (like Kari V.)...it's just Patek...and most of their clients only care about that! It has nothing special and they charge what they want to hold that status which is a joke that most fall for. Enough on this or i can go for days... but just consider how easy it is for me to convince people that a new Pizza store is amazing because they charge $100 a whole and they say its good. Trust me, i know a whole region that can fall for that. Think of people who spend 3k on a bracelt these days...jeeeez
Blue:
Journe makes dress watches. Period.
Even if I were to let you have it on this, which I will...it still leaves a huge gap between having a manual wind, leather strap piece as a daily wear compared to a stainless steel sport watch....I see two far a gap and by no means same cateogry therefore.......i will say most would choose the Patek because it makes more sense, not as the better watch but as the more reasonable if only owning one!
Purple:
Do people still weigh how much gold's worth is in their movements and cases in order to truly determine if the price is "worth" it?? If they still do then something is clearly not right! You spend 20k on a Journe for the craftsmanship. The difference between haute horlogerie watches and your typical chinese movement is craftsmanship and that is how we justify these prices. We don't weigh the gold. Journe uses stainless steel for his two most expensive pieces and I will rip apart anyone who thinks it to be unfair!! Honestly, when you enter into this sector, the price of gold become negligent after going above 15k or so. A JLC in gold can be had for around there (retail new) so using the same gold case, we see the increase in prices when you enter into the world of Journe, AP, Patek or anyone there, is not in the case material but the movements and crafts. Now, there might be some fluctuations but then other factors come to play like the cost of labor and such.
Green:
You mention PP 324 and master watchmaker and to be quite frank...that is a huge exaggeration! That is an extremely basic caliber and any watchmaker with careful hands can service it. They don't require special lubricants or knowledge of the movement because it is that basic! My untrained eye with little watchmaking experience can point out the different gears on that. Your worry should not be in the service itself but just find someone who won't scratch it for you and most good ones won't.
The FPJ is a little more complex but even then, there will always be a master watchmaker around (i say master) who can tackle it because it remains a basic calibre with just a more poetic layout. Anywho, the man has currently 25 watchmakers on board, I'm pretty sure at least one of them will remain to service your watch and Geneva is quite a tiny place.
Violet:
NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!
See I really don't agree with this whole Journe DNA statement of yours! I get it but I absolutely don't agree with it and especially with the Bleu! Now I've done quite a bit of Journe homework and I have concluded the Bleu is as pure Journe DNA as it gets! Let me explain:
Journe's philosophy and vision is about making watches with chronometric precision. In order to do so, Journe's goal surrounds the concept of "simplification". His goal is not to shove parts everywhere and having 20 different complications here and there no no no no! It is about making the most beautiful watch, with the most accurate precision and the simplest way. As a result of the quest of simplicity and the nature of watchmaking to be complex...achieving that is a struggle. Consider the fact that he only uses one complication per watch (around) and does everything in small spaces with little parts but as a result, the watch is so difficult to come up with (maybe not for him). Further, the watches are very technical which not a lot of people will understand but they also have to look simple. Journe hates cluttered dials and he needs balance. Some will have different opinion here but He cares little of your opinion.
Now, the Bleu is PURE Journe DNA! Why?? Because at first glance it is soooo simple! Nothing besides a subsecond dial and that's it. Just simply pure. However, when you begin to dwell into it further you realize that it's faaaaar more complex than it looks. From the tantalum case to the dial to the movement itself. Now THAT IS JOURNE DNA!!! SOmething that looks simple on the outside but far more complex within!
That said, i respect Mr. Genta's work but you mention that the Nautilus stood the test of time?? From my understanding it was a huge flop when it first came out. I think you are mixing the RO in there
.
Yes it was there longer and maybe will still remain for another 100 years or so but that is not the point of a Journe. You don't really buy a Journe in the same manner in which you buy a Patek, AP or VC... A Journe is one man's idea and buying it is a pure connection. Journe guys don't care what happens to the brand in 50 years because we don't really buy an FPJ watch per se, we buy Francois-Paul Journe's work...and that is timeless and a piece of history!
"Francois-Paul Journe is rewriting history, in the present, for the future"
-AK93
P.S. Love You bro!
